Prior to the 2016 election, my only panic buying was to get my SBR and Suppressor applications in to the ATF. With my tax stamps in hand, I dove into the world of suppressed SBR AR-15s. What I found wasn't pretty. First off, discount parts weren't going to cut it. SBR's put a lot more stress on the action and gas system than it was originally designed. A can exacerbates that. Not to mention the additional fouling that makes its way into the action of a DI rifle. Since tax stamps are such a PITA, I decided not to skimp on a rifle would probably never see another owner. My SBR lower is an Aero Precision Ambi with BCM LPK, Magpul furniture, PWS buffer assembly, AXTS Talon ambi-safety, and HiperFire 24E trigger.
I wanted to build the lightest upper possible to offset the weight of the can, with an 11" barrel to minimize length with the can attached yet still maintain good velocity and reasonable gas pressures that wont beat the action to death. Originally I went with an SLR adjustable gas block and a Bootleg adjustable bolt carrier for gas regulation. The SLR is set for PMC Bronze unsuppressed, with any subsequent gas adjustment done from the carrier.
Here's the cost breakdown of my upper build.
Bootleg Upper: 159.95
Bootleg Port Door Assy: 9.95
Bootleg Adj Bolt Carrier: 249.95
Bootleg Bolt: 79.95
BCM KMR Alpha10 Handguard: 179.95
BCM Gas Tube: 14.00
AXTS Raptor Ch. Handle: 89.95
Faxxon 11.5" Barrel: 149.00
SLR Sentry6 Gas Block: 119:99
Surefire Socom556 Muzzle Brake: 149.00
RailScales HTP Scales: 29.00
Total 1,230.69
What I didn't realize at the time was that I was basically building a DI version of what PWS already makes with a piston. More on that later.
After getting everything assembled and torqued I hit the range. Everything went great until I attached my Surefire 762 Mini. I chose the 7.62 version for caliber versatility, and I figured the larger bore would reduce back pressure. I knew that suppressed SBRs were dirty but I didn't realize how bad it could be. I was shooting 3-5 round strings of Federal M193, not Wolf or PMC, but even outdoors and moving, my eyes were watering after just a few rounds. Support side was even worse. While I could tolerate this during a zeroing session or an actual encounter, this was something I didn't want to have to deal with during a defensive rifle class or at my indoor range. I knew I wanted a piston upper. I'd been looking at piston uppers for the past few years, but the drawbacks and cost held me back. Most of the systems used heavy short-stroke pistons. These often come with heavy profiled barrels, gas blocks that are large enough to limit rail length, carrier tilt, and reports of spotty reliability. I knew PWS made a long-stroke AR, but I dismissed them as too expensive and assumed a long-stroke design would be heavier. The release of their Mod2 line changed my thinking.
The first obvious change was that they incorporated the Bootleg lightweight upper into their build. While this eliminates the forward assist, none of my current uppers have one, both as a weight saving measure and because I've never needed to use it. The Picmod rail is skeletonized with Keymod on 3,6, and 9 o'clock as well as picatinny rails on the forward sections.
PWS MK111 Mod2 Upper: 1,349.95
Compared to my SBR build, the difference is 119.26 When factoring the included Triad flash hider and BCM Ch. handle vs Surefire brake and Raptor Ch. handle the difference is $238.31
While nearly $240 is nothing to sneeze at, PWS uppers often sell for $100 less. Now factor the cost of shipping from multiple vendors and the difference shrinks to less than $100. Do you already own all the tools needed to assemble an upper? A torque wrench, action block, or armorer's wrench will set you back $50 each.
All the referenced prices are MSRPs. I sourced the original upper parts while I waited for my suppressor Form4 to clear. I had months to scour the web for deals and wait for price specials. For the PWS upper, I asked a few Facebook friends to point me toward a Mk111 Mod2 and had one in my hands in 4 days. My actual cost difference all in for both uppers was ~$100.
When the postman handed me the 28" long black cardboard box, I must have looked like a kid on Christmas morning. I tore it open, and as I stared at the beautifully machined and anodized upper, a painful realization hit me. There was nothing more to do. No parts and tools to gather, no Googling torque specs, no assembly. As a guy who actually enjoys putting together Ikea furniture, this was quite a a letdown. But then I saw the BCM sling mount and the RailScales, and then I remembered I still had to transfer over my buis, MRO, Raptor charging handle, Karve handstop, X300U, and Surefire muzzle brake. Since PWS specifies an H2 buffer with their rifles, and I was going out of town, I used the $25 gift card to purchase theirs.
A week later, I finally got some time to hit the range. I set the gas block to position 3 (suppressed full power ammo), attached my can, set a target down range at 100 yards, and fired my first 3 shot group from sandbags using PMC Bronze .223. PMC is known for being pretty weak and I wanted to see how the gun functioned.
1st 3 shots @ 100 yards |
After 180 rounds |
After 180 Rounds |
After 180 rounds |
After 180 rounds |
After 180 rounds |
There was no evidence of carrier tilt or any abnormal wear. The bolt and carrier were lightly coated in a mix of factory grease and fouling, but the guts of the carrier and bolt return spring were clean. Nothing was baked on or crusty. The nooks and crannies in the receiver and trigger well were no dirtier than my handguns get. Getting the bolt carrier out is a little more involved than with a DI gun since the BCG and charging handle have to come out together. It was a minor annoyance during repeated bore cleanings at break-in, but a worth while trade off compared to scraping the bolt. I always keep a spare bolt and gas rings handy for my DI uppers. I'll have to inquire with PWS about spare parts. All the parts wiped clean with just a patch soaked in Slip 2000 725 Cleaner. I only needed 4 patches to clean the upper, BCG, and lower. Keep in mind that only about 15 of the 180 rounds were shot unsuppressed.
Bolt Group Cleaned |
Lower Cleaned |
Upper Cleaned |
I currently have a Griffin Recce5 5.56 can waiting in NFA jail, so I don't know how the upper will perform with a dedicated 5.56 can. I can say that the recoil impulse feels softer than my DI guns. It feels like the difference between a mallet and a dead-blow hammer. When the bolt locks back on the last round, the impact of the bolt feels almost muffled somehow. It's probably due to the gas acting on the piston over a long period and the added weight of the piston rod slowing the carrier speeds. Needless to say, I like it
I can't say how happy I am with the PWS MK111 Mod2 Upper. I've already ordered their MK114 a 14.5" upper that I plan to pin a Griffin Flash Comp for my non-NFA lower. To pay for it, I'm selling my DI uppers.
-Carry On.
Excellent review of the MK111 MOD2 for dedicated suppressed purposes! Definitely check out the high quality spare parts PWS has to offer, but keep in mind that in a pinch you can always drop in a DI bolt into the PWS carrier and continue mission.
ReplyDeleteFred Ruiz
PWS Pro Team Shooter
Hey MVgunner! Your got an awesome looking gun there bud! I m going through exactly the same dilema as you has back when you built your rifle so I wanted to ask you a few things before I go ahead and buy my PWS or build it my way. I like the concept of the Long gas piston system of the PWS upper esp how clean the whole system is but I cant run a can as I live in Canada :P and I am building this as my home defense / fun gun / class gun so initially I had my eye on the ADM UIC Mod 3 in 12" 223 Wylde config with but then I saw the Mk111 Mod 2….which is almost perfect but is missing the ADM style bolt hold open feature. So I m toying with the idea of buying a completed ADM lower with a law tactical folding stock adapter and then put on the MK111 Mod 2 upper. While the other option is getting a ADM UIC 3 complete rifle and be done with it.
ReplyDeleteQuestions about the upper
1) Is the built in PWS adjustable gas port good enough to tune the gun to have min recoil? Ie 3 gun hossing low recoil? Or would you say a Sentry 7 adjustable gas block is better? (I currently have the Sentry 7 AGB on my BCM and love it)
2)This is gonna be such a Newbie Qs…will there be or in your experience seen issues with running a BCM or ADM lower with the PWS upper? My main concern is using a diff Buffer + spring setup in the lower as to the PWS perfected buffer and spring setup may cause issues, I know that for the law tactical folding stock adapter to work I will need to buy an extra piece of special buffer for it to work with PWS guns.
3)I have shot suppressed before so I know what it feels like to have your face blasted with stinging gas and after that first mag you are pretty much ready to go home! Given that I m not going to be able to use a Can up in the great white north…in your opinion is it still worth it to get a piston upper vs the nicer DI guns ?
Great review man btw and I m going to hit up the guys over at Eaton Tac for a foan kit for my seahorse case!
Oh i forgot one last question - have you tried installing a Magpul BAD lever on the PWS lower? I m just thinking that the only reason i want an ADM UIC lower is the bolt lock open and i can do that with a BAD lever if it fits and works on the PWS lower.
ReplyDeletethanks again man!
The PWS gas settings are for large swings in pressure. I.E. weak PMC Bronze vs M855, or suppressed vs unsuppressed. If you want to minimize recoil, the Sentry gives you much finer adjustment to tune the gas to your chosen ammo.
DeleteYou can tune with the buffer/spring combo as well. PWS recommends an H2 buffer with their rifles. With the gas block on the lowest setting and my Griffin can attached, I'm slightly undergassed. Instead of going to the higher setting, I've been running a standard weight buffer. The action runs so clean, that I don't worry about needing the extra weight to push the bolt closed and I don't need the extra weight to reduce carrier speed since I don't full-auto/bump-fire.
The piston is nice, but without a can, the gas coming back from my tuned SLR isn't that bad. Even with the piston, I still get some gas through the ejection port due to the back pressure from the can. If you shoot a lot outdoors on a well ventilated indoor range, I'd have no problem running DI. The only time DI would have really sucked was when I did a class in a shoot house, firing quick strings inside a small room with no airflow to clear the smoke. All things being equal, I find DI guns to be better for precision accuracy, and parts are easy to come by, unlike the proprietary piston/carrier. Also, with the PWS, you are stuck with their rail. It's a good rail, but I wish I could swap it with a BCM KMR.
I'm not a fan of the BAD lever. I had one on a standard lower, but my gun is front heavy with the suppressor. I have to awkwardly adjust my grip to work it and give up some control on the pistol grip. Also, had to be careful setting the gun down with the bolt locked back and when shooting lefty, my trigger finger would catch the left side. Like you mentioned, I found myself only using it to lock the bolt back. Same with the ADM UIC lower. I only use the right side bolt catch to lock the bolt back. I don't perform reloads or malfunction clearance left-handed since all my magazines are setup (on a belt) for right-handed work.
Since you aren't running a can, I think you'd be happy with the ADM Mod3 and a Sentry gas block. Being able to change the rail might be a huge plus for 3-gun too. If you want to go with the PWS upper and run a Law folder, you also need to get a special extension for the PWS carrier from Law Tactical.
Also, check out Sage Dynamics on youtube. He does great videos on techniques (mostly defense focused) and has some very informative reviews on the ADM UIC and PWS rifles.
DeleteHey Earl, thanks for the valuable input above man! Its great to speak with someone that takes these regularly to classes and actually have had hands on time with the rifles i m considering. I do see your point regarding the BAD lever i m right handed so when it works its great i can do bolt lock back and send the bolt home after a reload much quicker than hitting the traditional paddle but sometimes the lever is quick finicky like when i put it on my MCX as the fit was not quite right it actually did more harm than good and i ended up just putting it back on my BCM 14.5"
ReplyDeleteYes Aaron from Sage dynamics is awesome and puts out very high value videos, i have been an avid viewer and subscriber for quite a while now.
Its quite interesting that our weapon setup and mindset are quite similar, as soon as i had my kids my training and self-defense desire went to exponentially and i became more prepared esp with all those shooting happening both in US and Canada now. I train regularly with my G17 and 19 but now with the CZ P10c i m really liking that gun since i got it but havent done much interms of upgrades to it other than having dawson precision doing a custom set of adjustable rear sights and a fiber optic front. I m going to read up on your trigger section and prob pick up an after mkt flat face trigger soon.
thanks again man! Stay Safe.
S/F
Eric
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ReplyDelete